The “wrestler vs model” debate has plagued women’s wrestling fans for as long as I can remember. Being the editor of Diva Dirt for the past four years, I’ve seen a wide spectrum of opinions from wrestlers, writers and most importantly, fans. For it’s the fans who use their ability to have a say on the Internet and are always the most vocal.
In 2011, WWE themselves finally acknowledged this debate that has been argued heatedly amongst Internet fans for years in the current Beth Phoenix and Natalya storyline, and somewhere along the way, it feels like the “heated debate” has turned into something more serious. Perhaps WWE drawing more attention to the debate has made it that much more topical, and made fans that much more fervent in their opinions on the situation — and thus, that much more aggressive towards people with opposing views.
It feels like fans have drawn the battle lines and you’re either one side or the other.
But why? Why do we have to choose? And why do we have to go to war over something that, compared to the real issues going on in the world, is so insignificant?
As the saying goes, opinions are like you-know-whats – everyone’s got one. It’s okay to have them. It’s okay to disagree. However, I can’t help but feel some take it a step too far. I don’t support the need to make blanket statements such as “all models need to be fired”. Doesn’t that sound familiar? Living in London, I’ve heard similar blanket statements such as, “All ****** need to go home”. Those statements would be considered intolerant, sexist, racist, homophobic etc. Of course, I don’t mean to suggest that this little debate we have online is anywhere near as important as very real issues such as racism and homophobia, but the sentiment is similar. Aren’t these comments just as sweeping and bigoted as telling people of an ethnic minority to “go home?”
I can’t help but wonder if the fact that we’re talking about women in a male-dominated sport perpetuates the need people feel to call these women derogatory names such as “rats” and “hoes”. In a business where the males are respected and for a large majority, the women are seen as inferior, does this make it more acceptable to try and denigrate these women as prostitutes because they come from a background in modelling or dancing? It’s offensive that all it boils down to in the end is calling women “sluts” and “hoes”.
I don’t blame anyone for the way they get into the business. If I was a model and a global company dangled a big money TV job in my face, passion or no passion, I would jump at the opportunity. And frankly, I’m guessing so would millions of other people.
I’m not saying that these girls can’t or shouldn’t be criticized. But shouldn’t we base our criticisms on something that is grounded? For example, “I saw XYZ in a match and she was really bad, look at that move she messed up.” Shouldn’t we be criticizing what we see instead of what we think we know? Even then, you may look at a certain former model and see an awful wrestler, while another may see that person and enjoy their work. In that instance, do we need to deride that fan as a “moron” or “idiot” because of who they like?
And let’s not forget, there are alternatives out there. If you don’t like what — or who — you’re seeing in WWE, pick up a WSU DVD, or a SHIMMER DVD, or watch Impact Wrestling on Thursdays. You’re not being chained to the TV and forced to watch. As someone put it to me on Twitter, however, some are creatures of habit and do tune in to Raw because it’s “all they know”. That makes sense, but there are other products out there. Creatures can change their habits, no?
That brings me to the main point I’m trying to make: why do we have to choose? What is this “with us or against us” mentality? “If you’re a fan of Kelly Kelly, you couldn’t possibly be like Sara Del Rey. You have to choose.” Well, no, you don’t. Who says we have to? Who’s forcing us to pick a side? Someone typing furiously into their keyboard?
Personally, I watch WWE and have nothing against the “models”. In fact, some of my favorite Divas came into WWE as former models or dancers – Layla and Alicia Fox, for example. Eve Torres, a former dancer, has impressed me this year. Kelly Kelly has certainly been impressive this year. I find the Bella Twins incredibly entertaining as heels. So does that mean I’m not a “real wrestling fan?” And am I not allowed to like what people consider “real wrestling?” Someone show me the rulebook. Sure, the Divas product isn’t very wrestling heavy, but I’ll support it because of the girls involved. But beyond WWE, I watch TNA which does a better job at presenting matches on TV, as well as WSU and SHIMMER. That’s a pretty broad spectrum. I like the Bellas, but hey, I like Sara Del Rey and Cheerleader Melissa too.
Why do I have to choose a side? And what happens if I don’t?
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91 Comments
It tends to be a tedious blight on the comments section sadly.
norisclouds Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 9:08 pm
THIS ^
There are so many things right with this article that I can’t even begin to get started.
I think that so many people want to be the fans of the “wrestlers” that they deem any person who comes from a modeling background to be less-than in comparison. Or more so, the females who aren’t necessarily up-to-par with the greats like Sara Del Rey. Admittedly, some females are better than others in the ring, just as some are better as /characters/, and I think that’s what a lot of people lose hold of.
Personally, I find it incredibly pathetic that any person can mouth any individual who knowingly goes down to that ring on a constant and puts their body on the line and yet tries to be an elitist critic simply because they aren’t “the best.”
I know it’s a puerile and futile wish, but I just hope that one day people can shut the heck up and enjoy the show.
Models vs Wrestlers is going to be a debate amongst diva fans for years to come just like the great Trish & Lita debate. It will never get settled because fans the pros & cons will always be at the same level.
I have watched wrestling dated back to 1999 when i was 9 years old , but i got into womens wrestling in 05. Trish was the 1st diva i fell in love with lol. Back then i didnt know much about the divas i didnt know about the models , indy wrestlers. At one point i thought Ashley was better than Jillian because she pinned her all the time. Then i read more into it and learned Jillian could beat ashley will her eyes closed and one hand tied behind her back while hoping on one leg lol.
I admit i have sided with the wrestlers side a few time over the models but that dosent mean i favor one side over the other because a few of my favorite divas are or were some type of “model”or w,e people calls them Layla & Alicia ! I would just be contridicting my self.
One of the reason why i think people have problems with models in the wwe is because some feel they havent worked as hard as the real wrestlers who started off from the egg and hatched into a chicken. Ex:Beth Phoenix she started wrestling from high school and worked her way up to wear she is , whereas someone like Kelly Kelly just shook her boobs and ass and now she is a former divas champion. You could say in your had divas like Eve , Kelly , Alicia , The Bellas has worked as hard as Beth , Nattie , Kong , Ivory , Del Rey has but on paper in reality its way different.
Which brings us to the #1 theory but Trish Stratus & Victoria were models turned wrestlers and people praise them as 2 of the best in the world. While Kelly , Eve , Maria , Alicia etc gets negative heat..
Melina&Mickie4ever! Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 2:05 pm
*Say in your head divas like*
Jamesgangforever Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:05 pm
I began watching wrestling in 07 when i was 10 or 11 and Mickie James was the first female wrestler I fell in love with and is currently the only female wrestler that I am attached to. I think mainly because i dont really follow the females on the indies. I know some of them because i read diva dirt, but in my head Mickie is the best.
art Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:25 pm
the bit about jillian beating ashley was hilarious…
GetFoxy Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 3:22 am
trish was the first diva i fell in love with and that was in 03 i think.i like both models and wrestlers and i think that iftheir willing to go out there and put their lives on the line to entertain us then they deserve a lot more respect than people give them.
I 100% agree with you there.
KellyKay23 Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 5:08 pm
Me too
Another point is that WWE is marketing and merchandising company & so there is commercial need to have Diva’s with model looks.
I don’t choose sides either, because lots of women have come into the WWE as models, and have had successful careers or have become athletic wrestlers.
If WWE never hired models, would there be a Trish Stratus, a Michelle McCool, a Victoria? or even a Sable? ..and if there’s no Sable, would there be no Divas division today?
I don’t think people are hating on models as wrestlers, they are hating on the fact that their favourite wrestlers on the indies are not in the WWE or TNA, despite them criticising the ‘E for short matches etc. They also wouldn’t want their favourite wrestler to lose to a former model, yet they want them to be signed by WWE? I don’t get it and I won’t get it.
As far as I’m concerned, WWE can hire as many models and wrestlers as they can, because models can become athletic wrestlers, it’s the WWE creative that are stopping them from showing their true potential
missawesomeness Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 9:08 pm
the fact is that they didn’t earn the right to be called to the wwe.
example kelly kelly she got her contract handed to her on a silver plate has she payed us back no! she continues to botch she’s wasted 5 yrs doing bull crap im not saying all models are the same but it’s a diva like kelly who brings down expectations. i mean look at someone like aj she’s been there almost a year and has been doing circles around kelly. it’s divas like kelly who fill up all the diva roster space so none of actual good wrestlers like kanna, sara del rey won’t be able to be in the wwe. what im trying to say is at least the non model divas earned their contract.
People like Layla, Trish and Alicia Fox have shown that models don’t have to fit the “useless in-ring model” stereotype. All of them improve, Kaitlyn is a wonderful example, who has grown incredibly since NXT3
All of the models must have dedication to train and go through wrestling.
Eden maybe not, since she just quit, but it proves it would be hard, just as hard as it is for the indie wrestlers when they first start. These ladies are simply thrown into the deep end, with a steeper learning curve
Beth Phoenix put it perfectly in an interview before; the girls don’t have the experience because WWE want younger and prettier faces in their shows. It’s not their faults.
It’s probably better to point the blame at WWE rather than the Divas themselves. WWE has been the ones consistently promoting models over the last 5 years. At the moment, the majority of their Diva roster seem to be models. I think a lot of us wouldn’t really mind the ‘models’ if there were only two or three on the main roster, and presumably they would be the best ones that can actually work wrestling matches, but WWE/Vince McMahon takes the ‘model philosophy’ too far and essentially saturates the program with models.
There’s an extreme emphasis at the moment that the Divas are all ‘just girls’ and therefore have to act like girls by doing girly things. Even Beth and Natalya have been reduced to this level. All of this just antagonizes most of the Diva fan base that want to see a proper Diva wrestling product.
Top onto that the fact that the Divas are continually booked poorly and given no airtime, and the ‘models’ easily become the scapegoat for a lot of people, when they really shouldn’t be blamed. It’s inevitable that the fans of the model Divas are going to defend their favourites further aggravating the people taking their anger out on the models.
At the end of the day, the current Divas products sucks, and most people here (Diva/women’s wrestling fans) are incredibly discontent about it. When people are unhappy, there’ll be conflict, and it’s no surprise that there are so many arguments here. If things were going well for the Divas, then there would be a lot less complaining that’s for sure, since most of us would be enjoying the product too much to be fighting (of course there’ll always be a few whiners).
It’s really not fair for the talent to cop the blame. You can’t exactly blame Kelly Kelly for being pushed so much. That’s not her decision. You can criticise her though for not making the best use of her opportunities, but it’s not her fault that management doesn’t seem to care about that. Essentially it should be WWE itself that should be buried for not having any genuine interest in pushing women’s wrestling.
Jamesgangforever Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:17 pm
“You can criticise her though for not making the best use of her opportunities, but it’s not her fault that management doesn’t seem to care about that.”
I agree on that. I feel that some of these divas that are giving the opportunity should really grab a hold of it and run like the wind and never look back, but if someone like K2 doesn’t want to do that then thats her. I blame management/Vince for the reason that I am not into kelly the way i used to be. When she won the divas title I was jumping all over my room, then I began to get tired of her.
I think a lot of it comes from the fact that fans feel models only use WWE as a stepping stone for something else and thus don’t care about wrestling. What they don’t realise is that the break-a-nail types who don’t care about the business don’t last long. Some fans don’t appreciate how hard wrestling training really is – if someone gets through it and gets to the stage where they can wrestle on TV then they sure as hell have some kind of passion for it. True WWE does place importance on looks but it’s the exact same in the men’s division as well. All the male wrestlers on the roster are young in shape attractive guys and the ones who aren’t have the freak factor like Mark Henry, Big Show, Kane etc and then in the women’s division you have Kharma. Even over in TNA all the Knockouts are attractive and a lot more sexualised than the Divas.
And another huge double standard is that a Diva will often get labelled as a “model” purely because she looks a certain way. Michelle McCool and Eve were never models before WWE. Michelle was a *teacher* and Eve has an engineering degree and her modelling career consists of a few photoshoots and nothing else. And if they were dancers before WWE they’ll often get labelled as weak as well. Do people not realise how athletic you have to be to be a dancer? Dancing and gymnastics backgrounds can be really beneficial in wrestling training as Naomi is living proof of. I personally know a very gifted indie wrestler who is a pole dancer and she’s miles better in the ring than someone like Tamina who gets a free pass because she doesn’t look like a model. I will say that in wrestling everyone needs to prove themselves and the likes of Kelly, Eve, Alicia, Michelle, Layla, Trish Stratus, Kaitlyn and Maxine have all proven themselves in my opinion. Need I remind you that Kelly has been hit in the face with the Sandman’s cane, been thrown into the security wall, pushed off the apron and taken all other kinds of daring bumps? Beautiful women and models can indeed become good wrestlers and hopefully one day they can earn respect from fans.
Jamesgangforever Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:24 pm
Yeah Michelle was teaching before she came to WWE. I don’t know why in the hell people are calling her a model. I guess because she was apart of Diva Search, that is because she never went on Tough Enough. She signed up but I don’t remember if she didn’t turn the application in or what.
tl;dr: Again, tt’s vastly WWE’s fault, not necessarily the women.
Firstly, we can’t go into this without highlighting the vicious cycle effect that is thus:
-> WWE puts no effort in recruiting girls that can REALLY hold the audience’s attention in the ring or as characters, nor do they put any sort of effort into compelling storylines for the women
-> The audience is trained to not care because there is absolutely no emotional pay-off for what they’re presented on TV/at the main shows that cannot be gotten from looking at the photoshoots on WWE.com
->Experiencing the lack of response, WWE continues to put less and less effort in, because there’s no reason to work on it
->Audience continues to get trained more and more to not care, and even begin to outright disrespect the entire division (piss breaks, much?)
->Continue until cycle is broken.
The schism is caused by the distressed feelings of fans scrambling for any sort of tangible excuse, because we rarely get footage of the writers and Vince meeting and be able to point at them and say “Ah ha, they really DON’T care!” It’s much easier to point to the exposure that someone like Kelly gets and blame her.
Secondly, WWE has wanted to have it both ways since Trish, trying to recapture the “lightning in a bottle” that was probably a perfect blend of mass attractive appeal and athleticism. The problem is that it’s inherently rare and Trish was exceptional herself. Sure enough there have been people who fit the mold, but we’ve gotten way more subpar-to-horrible in-ring women who get overexposed, pushed too fast, and, surprise, left relatively quickly. It’s unarguably damaged the image of the division, which combines with WWE’s mismanagement to raise the ire of people looking for scapegoats.
Speaking of image, here are the nails in the coffin (until this division rises from its grave) that make people point to the “models” as a problem:
-”Smart, Sexy, Powerful” : Which part do you think the general audience really thinks WWE focuses on? The only time intellect has been used is when Eve has to defend herself in the model-argument saying she actually doesn’t come from a modeling background and has a degree? Are we counting the Hiroshima Surprise Roll-Up’s as smart? (I don’t.) And powerful? What power is there when the two dominant women, both of whom are physically-looking and in background stronger than most of the girls, are made into a joke where the fans EXPECT them to get rolled-up now?
-The continued use of ear-grating generic light poppy “SHE’S SO SEXY/GIRLY” dance music as themes. Remember Gail Kim’s theme? Remember Torrie WIlson’s theme? Lita’s? Jazz’s? Heck, even Trish, Melina, Maryse, LayCool? KHARMA? Entrance music goes a helluva long way in defining image, and “All the girls in the club say woah!,” “You can look, but you can’t touch,” “She looks good to me” “Whatever the heck the lyrics of AJ’s theme are (if it’s even still here theme since they’re now just using it for general Diva walks) don’t get one pumped for wrestling skills OR characters. This is on par with the generic rock themes most of the generic “Firstname McLastname” guys have now.
-The biggest offender: That title belt. How can anyone take it seriously when it looks like something that comes as an accessory to “Mattel’s (TM) WWE Diva Barbie (TM).” A giant pink butterfly does not inspire skill, strength (in-ring or of character), and hype. Sure, it inspires grace and beauty. Also: Weakness, frailty, briefness, insignificance, ability to be replaced. Kind of like…models.
Lastly, many are angry because, in their mind, there’s been no alternatives for the longest as far as WWE is concerned. It’s great that places like TNA and Shimmer showcase women’s wrestling and characters properly (or try to, at least). But, like it or not, for many if it’s not WWE it’s not legit. The general audience is silently hungry for change, which is why Kharma went over astoundingly well in so little time, and why they were more than happy to sit on their hands so quietly that you could hear Beth give directions to Kelly this past PPV. Even though it’s not neccessarily the “models’” fault, people want something different. Which causes the schism.
Lanoom Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Addendum: I’m going to add Ashely’s theme to the list of good entrance themes, Though it still perplexes me why she got pyro and…no other woman does.
wl75 Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:29 pm
I think the Divas belt is unique- and it’s a great marketing tool. (and believe it or not, I’m still shocked they haven’t done a Diva Barbie, given Mattel’s relationship with WWE).
Lanoom Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Unique is good. Cody bringing back the unique, white-strapped Intercontinental title is good. Ryder’s Internet Championship is unique and good, as is the U.S. Title seeing as it’s dominant element is the flag. Even the current tag titles are good.
Unique and good are not synonymous. The WWE Title is unique and garish, a holdover from “Doctor of Thuganomics” John Cena that doesn’t look right on anybody else (MVP could’ve rocked it, but alas). Likewise, the Diva title is way too obnoxiously, focus-grouped and marketing-agent “girly” to look right on any non-”model” Diva, hurting its legitimacy and prestige that one would hope would come from holding the only title available to your division.
I can think of a number of symbols that could be centric to the belt design and still “girly,” if that’s what WWE wants (diamonds are a girl’s best friend, anyone?) But if anything needs to change after WWE’s ability to actually put effort in the division, it’s the belt.
Lanoom Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 4:29 pm
And I just realized I contradicted myself. #3.5hoursofsleep
Unique CAN be good. Unique and good are not synonymous.*
perceval Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 4:32 am
“I’m still shocked they haven’t done a Diva Barbie, given Mattel’s relationship with WWE”
Mattel would probably want to do a Trish Barbie, with the Gold & Red belt.
Jamesgangforever Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:36 pm
I hate the fact that most people in this world feel that if it’s not WWE it’s not legit. Well they’re wrong. People think that the divas are better simply because they are WWE Divas. I disagree. I became a Mickie James fan when she was in WWE. I felt that she was one of the best, but that wasn’t because she was a diva. I still am a huge Mickie fan one of the biggest even though she is a knockout.
Lanoom Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:54 pm
I want to clarify that I did not mean it as a “WWE vs. Indies” argument, but more as a “Yay, this Raw is cool…oh, it’s them again. *Goes off to the bathroom*” anti-generic argument.
Was anybody leaving when Kharma was a looming threat? Imagine a Divas division where Christina Von Eerie//Toxine is punk rocking it out, where Naomi and What’s-Her-Face are doing the (so bad it’s good) ghetto girls gimmick, where the Chickbuster split actually happens and Kaitlyn and AJ join DoD and Kelly/Eve/Alicia respectively. People want stuff to happen, and nothing has happened since the DoD first formed.
Like I said, it’s great that TNA/the indies are holding it down, but we’re talking about improving WWE. Companies outside that are non-arguments in this case.
perceval Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 8:13 pm
“The continued use of ear-grating generic light poppy “SHE’S SO SEXY/GIRLY” dance music as themes. Remember Gail Kim’s theme? Remember Torrie WIlson’s theme? Lita’s? Jazz’s? Heck, even Trish, Melina, Maryse, LayCool? KHARMA? Entrance music goes a helluva long way in defining image, and “All the girls in the club say woah!,” “You can look, but you can’t touch,” “She looks good to me” “Whatever the heck the lyrics of AJ’s theme are (if it’s even still here theme since they’re now just using it for general Diva walks) don’t get one pumped for wrestling skills OR characters. This is on par with the generic rock themes most of the generic “Firstname McLastname” guys have now.”
Yeah, the themes these days do suck. The classics… The lyrics to Trish’s “Time to Rock N Roll” fit her character, perfectly, and worked regardless of her face or heel status. Plus, that laugh as the opening cue… During her Dominant Heel run, as soon as that laugh hit, the audience reacted, knowing whichever poor Diva was in the ring at that moment was in serious trouble. As we saw with Kharma, the laugh as the cue can STILL create that effect.
So many great themes, then… LoveFurePassionEnergy (with those EYES in the Titantron), All The Things She Said, Need A Little Time (sung by Lillian Garcia), Legs, Be Yourself (It says something about how good a theme is when I’m watching old videos and it gives me that nostalgic feeling… then I remember it’s just Ashley)…
Compare AJ’s Disney style theme to her FCW one, Feelin’ Ya. No lyrics, but it doesn’t need them. It presents a woman who is about to kick whoever’s ass is out there. The only Divas with great themes currently are Beth, Kharma, and Layla (assuming she’ll still use the LayCool theme, which is, significantly, one of Torrie’s old ones, the one she used with Vince’s Devils).
“The biggest offender: That title belt. How can anyone take it seriously when it looks like something that comes as an accessory to “Mattel’s (TM) WWE Diva Barbie (TM).” A giant pink butterfly does not inspire skill, strength (in-ring or of character), and hype. Sure, it inspires grace and beauty. Also: Weakness, frailty, briefness, insignificance, ability to be replaced. Kind of like…models.”
Yeah, pretty symbolic. When Trish talks about the classic Gold & Red belt being retired… She says it in the nicest, most diplomatic way possible (She’s still doing business with the company, after all), but she obviously views the Divas Division (She makes a point of referring to the Women’s and Divas Divisions as separate things) as not up to the standards of the belt she lost a knuckle to.
Though, in the Butterfly’s defense, the Spinner Belt sucks even more. And, obviously, someone at TNA liked the Divas Championship design, since the TNA Championship belt was modeled on it for a few months. It was such a strange sight seeing what looked like the Butterfly belt lowering dramatically from the rafters on Impact with Hogan going on about how it represented immortality. :)
You Go Melanie.. Preach it…
I started watching wwe because of lita.. until now I think she is an awesome person… but right now, honestly I am a bog fan of Kelly… but it doesnt mean I constantly root for her.. just few days ago at tlc I was rooting for Beth because I want to see her more on tv
Everything said above is true.. most of the model divas are as entertaining as the vet divas… and actually I havent even chosen which side I’m on.. I just wanna be entertained and thats what matters
perceval Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 8:16 pm
I have to disagree. Kelly as entertaining as Trish, Lita, Victoria, & Mickie? What’s she got, besides being pretty?
norisclouds Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 9:50 pm
It’s hard to recreate those characters of the past for a lot of these women. Victoria was just a natural character-actor, and Trish and Lita pulled those characters from somewhere deep inside of themselves.
I think both Lita and Trish’s heel characters were super exaggerated versions of like a mirror-universe version of themselves. I loved loved loved Lita’s heel attire–it was the “fuck your rules man” rock look on the other end of her anti-establishment, daredevil punk look she’d taken on previously. Her face character was basically herself, same is true for Trish-smart, saavy, a little sexy but cute and a good person that never gave up.
I don’t feel like any of the divas today are playing themselves really–except maybe AJ. It’s not really a mark against them–how much opportunity do they have to build characters?
I dunno in terms of dichotomy Trish and Lita were just perfect at the perfect time–two polar opposites that the fans could get behind that meshed well as friends or enemies. I really wish we’d gotten an Xtreme Stratusfaction heel run OMG–Trish and Lita as heels together. I would love that comeback.
I agree with the article. I mean, i like Kelly Kelly and i like Madison Eagles and i stay clear of aligning with the “models” or “wrestlers”. I simply like whoever i find appealing to watch. But i think why people are so divided on the matter is because women, more specifically, Sara Del Rey, have worked hard to perfect their craft in the independent circuit and the models have just been hired based on their looks not talent. So the wrestlers themselves get shunned for the likes of these models- who when start training, aren’t as good. It’s no-one’s fault but the WWE’s and now apparently they don’t care for the divas division…Which is kind of contradictory considering it’s their fault for hiring inexperienced women in the first place.
its the models who haven’t(or much) improved that get the heat from wrestling fans in general because their used more often then the girls who can work or just sloppy & painful to watch…
trish was a model,she worked her ass off & became a wrestler…
divas like layla,eve & alicia who dont have indy experience have improved so much where they have the feel of a wrestler…they dont fit the model mold..
they have proven themselves…
This always been an issue since November 2004.
I side myself with more on the wrestler side because that’s just me with a old school mentality and it’s always considered a insult especially with Divas with the average wrestling fan if someone with no wrestling type of background beating someone with experience it’s considered a insult.
Even girls like Kelly Kelly (not a fan but do not discredit her over anything) and Eve Torres when pulling off stunts such as slapping/shaking asses when wanting to to shed off the Model image and when doing those stunts it does not make them look serious in a audience’s eyes.
I have no issue with girls who come from a Modeling background because that you can work hard to become a prospect or even legit as along is that if you are there for right reasons not for TV exposure or using WWE as a stepping stone to get into Hollywood. There has been a few successes with names such as Michelle McCool, Angela Fong, Naomi Night who became legit while Alicia, Layla, Maxine, Aksana, Kaitlyn, and Eve have become prospects.
I have to say that for the longest time, I have hated on the models and I have been on the Wrestlers side for as long as I can remember. But as of late, I have come to accept the models and I have let all of that hate and anger go, for I don’t see any good reason to have it. All that matters to me is that the women themselves have a passion for the business. If not, then I will have a problem with them.
Also, Lanoom said, “But, like it or not, for many if it’s not WWE it’s not legit.”. I feel sorry for the people who have been brainwashed to think like that. Because they are missing out on a lot of great stuff that is outside of the WWE. A lot of the best wrestling and the best wrestlers are in companies that are not the WWE. Companies like ROH, Shimmer, Chikara, etc. Some of the best wrestlers in the world are not in WWE like Sara Del Rey, Cheerleader Melissa, MsChif, etc. So those people are missing out on a lot of great stuff because of the way they think. They need to change that way of thinking so they can enjoy wrestling at its best. That is what i did because I used to be one of them. For those who don’t change, well it is your lost.
P.S.
I am very happy to see very talented people be the champions at the moment. I saw this picture that had all of the champions together backstage and I just got this big smile on my face. Punk, Bryan, Ryder, Rhodes, Beth Phoenix, Kofi, and Evan all together with their belts. I’m happy to see talented people finally get their due. Thank you Punk.
Jamesgangforever Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 3:43 pm
I was soooooooooooo happy when Bryan won the title. He is such a great wrestler, but also those people who have brainwashed themselves are really missing out on things. I have heard that shimmer is awesome and they have some really great female wrestlers.
Wrestlers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Models
Kaledrina Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 4:01 pm
then stop watching wwe. stop watching tna. stop torturing yourself. you’re actually on a website now with diva in the name, you should be embarrassed.
Jillfan1 Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 7:20 pm
TNA ONLY HAS BROOKE THE REST ARE WRESTLERS EXCEPT CHRISTY, SO CAL VAL AND KAREN i agree with LAQUISHA she/he didn’t bash anyone FREEDOM OF SPEECH
perceval Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 6:40 pm
You’ll notice that this site covers Shimmer and other indie promotions, and promotes women wrestlers, heavily. It isn’t all about Kelly Kelly photoshoots.
As Jillfan1 said, the Knockouts are primarily wrestlers.
And yes, there was a time when “Diva” meant Trish Stratus, Lita, Molly Holly, Jacqueline Moore, Ivory, Jazz, Victoria, Gail Kim, Mickie James, and Melina.
You notice no one identifies Trish & Victoria primarily as models, despite their fitness backgrounds? You wonder why? Go to Youtube, and look up…
“Victoria vs Trish MV – The Feud”
…for a great tribute to the four year rivalry that took women’s wrestling in North America from a novelty to the upper card, a draw unto itself.
Then, look up the Kelly vs Brie feud for the Championship, THIS year.
After that, maybe you’ll understand what DIVA fans are griping about.
A lot of good points here- I think also people don’t remember that WWE is a business- they have to cater to not only the hardcore fans, but to the casual fans as well. So personalities are vital to help draw those casual fans in- Maryse was a prime example. She might not have been the best wrestler, but she had one hell of a personality…
i’ve always found it a shame that it tends to be women’s wrestling fans that are more hateful towards women in wrestling. it seems so counter-productive. why do we expect the general, run of the mill wrestling fans to care about the women, or even the big companies like wwe to focus on the ladies.. when us, the actual women’s wrestling fans, seem to be spending every minute unnecessarily criticising them and basically calling them shit.
Lanoom Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 4:04 pm
Criticism is ALWAYS necessary for the betterment of any craft. And unless anybody who has been serious about wrestling has been lying to me, from HBK to backyard-wannabe-superstars, wrestling is a craft.
It is our duty as fans to NOT just accept what is given to us when we know the competitors and management are capable of doing better. I have the entirety of Kharma’s run as evidence that the general audience can and WANTS to care, as well as further past examples such as Trish, Lita, Mickie, Laycool, etc. Nobody buys a ticket/PPV or turns on USA/SyFy to sit on their hands. If we are dissatisfied, we must speak up or else no change will come.
Of course there will be haters, but we are not concerned about them and I’m certain that every woman in WWE is mature enough to distinguish between criticism and hate.
Kaledrina Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 4:11 pm
oh, i understand that and agree with you. i think i could’ve worded what i was thinking in my head better, though. like, myself, i can be pretty critical with wwe at times, if not most of the time, but i always try to do it in a constructive way rather than just criticising for the sake of hating. :)
I have been watching women’s wrestling since the early 90′s. Back in the days where Madusa would battle with Luna Vachon or the current Japanese star, Bull Nakano and Akira Hokuto. I also watched the brawls between Luna and Sensational Sherries. I was spoiled on women that could reallly wrestle. Then came the days of Ivory, Molly Holly, Jazz, Victoria, Trish and Lira. Again it was full of women that knew the business.
I lost interest when the Diva Search rolled around. There are a few solid workers that came out of the diva search, but I felt that for the most part these girls weren’t here to wrestle. Sometime around 2007, I stumbled across this all female promotion called Shimmer and a wrestler called Cheerleader Melissa. At first thought I didn’t want to waste my time on someone with a cheerleader gimmick. Boy was I surprised.
Shimmer is a company that puts talent first. As a fan of the “wrestlers” over “models”, Shimmer is my preference. I keep up on the WWE and TNA girls and often find the matches enjoyable. I think we can all appreciate female wrestlers. It’s hard work and kudos to the women that are doing it.
My problem is when people are doing greatest wrestler lists and people like Kelly Kelly and Maryse are there. Yes they are (were) decent wrestlers not anywhere near the beat. It also annoys me when people claim to be such a big fan of womens wrestling yet they refuse to watch and non WWE/TNA stuff. These are just my personal heartburns for fans of the sport I love so dearly.
*I wrote this from my cell, so please forgive typos. :)
i think when people use the term ‘model divas’ they are more angered that these divas with far less talent (not to offend any of the divas) whilst others who are extremely talented and can put on a highly entertaining match are either pushed aside or let go of (e.g. gail, melina, Jillian)
IMO people are also angry at the state of the division compared to the thriving division it was during 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and even 2009 with divas such as melina, lita, trish, mickie, beth and michelle at the forefront, Its not completely the current diva’s fault as wwe are not creating storyline and interest into the matches and are NOT GIVING THE DIVAS ENOUGH TIME to put on a meaningful match apart from those rare ppv matched. TNA does a much better job of this..
Honestly would you rather see Melina vs Beth (i quit match from 2008) or Kelly kelly vs Brie Bella.. I thought so lol im not trying to diss the bellas or kelly as each diva is talented in their own way but it a sure thing that melina and melina will put on a classic that will probably steal the show.
In saying that if WWE could at keast give the current crop of divas a meaningful storyline and the time necessary to have a meaningful match, maybe they could surprise us and make us more interestedd.
We just want better storyline and better matches (which can be achieved quickly by using the more established wrestlers whilst newer divas are,properly trained and tone their in ring skills)
I’m just hopeful that one day the divas will get the proper attention needed from WWE in order to make it thrive once again as it has in the past. Until then, the knockouts divison will be much more highly regarded than the divas division, in my opinion.
MNM4ever Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 5:08 pm
*melina and beth LOL im tired
Jhonmarco Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 8:00 pm
I found nothing wrong with Melina being released, she had a good run with many title reigns as a heel & face. & tbh if she didn’t start drama on twitter, things might’ve been different for her.
MNM4ever Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 3:36 am
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA so your telling me that someone who did so much for the company during her 6 year wwe career (on television- 5 women’s titles, Manging MNM to three tag titles and managing John morrison to 2 intercontinental titles deserves to be pushed aside to let non-talented wrestlers gain more spotlight. not only that but her and gail were forced to perform their rivalry on wwe superstars (which contained a great series of matches) whilst kelly and brie were on raw competing over the divas title (which included much less memorable matches)
MNM4ever Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 9:44 am
** and not only that but she didnt even get a “goodbye” match
Jhonmarco Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:44 am
I’m sorry but don’t label all women wwe has as untalented at the time I think all women have their positives. & I’m sorry I don’t think it was a travesty that Melina was released for younger girls like AJ & Kaitlyn. They’re the future, granted Kelly’s been pushed this year. It’s clear those 2 are the future. & if anyone’s release was a shame it was Jillian’s. She made the best out of all situations, was a joke, etc. Why does everyone feel for Melina, when others have gotten much worde treatment? Let’s be honest people.
MNM4ever Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:39 pm
I can see where your coming from, but its pretty saddening that a woman as talented and giving to the company (as melina) was thrown away like that without a goodbye match or anything
Jhonmarco Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 7:13 pm
Oh I agree with that, she goes in the same boat with Mickie James.
MNM4ever Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 10:51 pm
i think i get over emotional when i bring melina into the topic :p and yep mickie and melina both left losing their last match. they were both so good in different ways!
Its really funny how people rant on models but they have a diva/model as their profile picture.
iLUVwrestlingValets Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 5:34 pm
LOL so true, i actually want Lacey VE as my avatar but i dont know how to get one
Jillfan1 Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 7:30 pm
you can admire a diva like me Maxine she’s beautiful so i can’t have her on my avatar? she improved she is no SDR but she is without a doubt talented some had LVE icon too you can prove your point without contradicting yourself just saying
My stance on this is it doesn’t matter where you come from, it matters where you are now, and where you’re going to be tomorrow.
And this is something that seems to be wholly unique to women’s wrestling. I really can’t recall to many complaints about former bodybuilders or football players getting signed.
I believe if you have had training and have matches in the ring, you are a wrestler.
One thing I would like to cite of “just a model” doing something big is Kelly Kelly at WrestleMania XXVI. She took a top rope splash from Vickie Guerrero.
Any training Vickie’s had must have been minimal at best, and probably not the best choice to do a move from the top and really be able to protect the person taking the move, but they did it anyway.
Kelly has in a way reminded me of a female Mick Foley. Not the most technically sound one out there, but she is not afraid to take a big bump for the sake of the match.
Honestly i like both the models and the wrestlers, but at the end of the day they are female wrestlers busting their asses to get some attention in a male dominated spot. Each and every one of these girls bring something different to the table, which creates entertainment. The real thing these internet wrestling fans should be complaining about is WWE’s piss poor treatment and management towards their women. These girls could bring in so much value , money, and entertainment to the company, but they dont care because from what i here managment doesnt believe in the current roster of divas despite the fact that these girls have given us consistently good PPV matches this year. Everybody is waiting for Kharma to come back and save the division, but whose to know if anything will even change when she comes back. All in all they need to work with the girls they have before the current roster of girls get so used to doing absoulutey nothing, because these girls are talented, and talent should never go to waste
Where to begin?
There is a perception that those who enjoy the model vanilla in the Divas division are either unappreciative or unaware of the era in which the WWE once had pride in strong female competitors. I’m not simply talking the much lauded Golden Age where Trish Stratus emerged into the definitive hybrid of model wrestler, but the mid-90s when Alundra Blayze was battling hard hitting joshi talent.
Then there is the perception that the current prototype of Divas is the reason why mainstream followers are likely to never witness such greatness again. That isn’t altogether fair, since the stagnant division we are struggling with is unfortunately reflective of a company that has shifted far beyond the traditional elements of wrestling into what purists revile as “sports entertainment”. As CM Punk acutely critiqued earlier this year, wrestling has become a tarnished art.
Every fan needs to accept the duality of sexuality in women’s wrestling. Why? For example, enter Sable, a woman whose made weapon of seduction helped in part establish a colossally popular character and arguably resurrect the Women’s Championship (ironically after Alundra Blayze denounced it). Was she an ideal spokesperson for a wrestling cause? No, but most would be lying if they didn’t find her work appealing. Juxtapose Ivory’s crusade to bring morality and class into a frivolous division with the fluff of Miss Kitty and Terri Runnells pulling hair while clad in bikini’s. What about Torrie Wilson’s feud with Dawn Marie as an additive to the serious wrestling of Trish and her many rivals over the years. Again, the sports entertainment and wrestling fan in me can appreciate both factors because they mix two very different components of the craft.
The problem now is that there is abundant lack of either. WWE book their women so haplessly and script them into irrelevance. One might say that the crop of current Divas barely inspires greater material, but I think it’s more of a case that the creative team have written off the division as a lost cause. Dirt sheets barely waste two sentences on anything they do and usually then it’s only to pour distaste. The majority of male wrestling fans are either ambivalent or casually sexist. That and maybe the fact that fans of WWE’s output are now too familiar with women who have little to offer in terms of in-ring skill.
My only gripe with models in wrestling is Vince McMahon’s belief that any model can be a decent wrestler. And that, say, a model taught a few tricks in the ring defines what everyone wants to see. My problem is a lack of diversity for both. Sure we’ve had Michelle McCool to name but one revelation of the Diva Search institution, but we also saw the exodus of several good wrestlers in favour of girls who lasted as long as it took for the kettle to boil.
Women’s wrestling is certainly a niche market; the WWE is in the best platform to promote and capitalise on that niche. The fact they don’t even try is disheartening on so many levels: to the women who work tirelessly to make it, to the women they have wrestle on their shows, to the fans that desperately want more and most importantly, it’s disrespectful to the art itself.
It was never an issue when Sable was around or Debra or Miss Kitty or Trish. The word model was almost non existent on wrestling message boards. It only started when the WWE fired half of the wrestling divas and started bringing up Diva Search rejects and start putting them on storylines and in the ring. All most all of those girls where gone within a few months and the ones that stayed find success in WWE. Sadly their improvement in the ring was not enough to erased that label. And every girl that came in after that with no wrestling background was labeled as such.
It all started when the Diva Search came on yes who would have known it would curse the division for almost a decade 7 yrs going and the sad fact is WWE is allowing it, they do not see that’s a low factor isn the company might aswell not have a division if you act like you do not have one! The reason why I will speak for myself is I AM pissed and infuriated I believed WWE was number one but now i see its better known for the storylines i knew that but ofcourse it comes with wrestling right? well why can’t some people see its frustrating for the veterans to be pushed as back burners hell even as jobbers to serve a purpose to develop these models skills and i am not talking just women men too why? i do not understand sure they will get a pay check to job to them but really? Don’t you think they train hard and put sacrifices to be here and getting this treatment come one look at their view for once, jobbing to them and carrying through a match would make them better (see TLC 2011) proves my point it hasn’t sure you have your Mccool’s,Eve and Layla’s but there nothing phenomenal ,can you understand we are sick and tired its due to creative and the business overall needs a check how did you think it felt when we saw ASHLEY VS MICKIE JAMES her beating her was unrealistic no wonder or KELLY BEATING BETH/VICTORIA who surpass her it is not taken seriously i always here “why? do you watch these S%^*), H*&^% and b^&$^*& thats how much of a bad rep they have and i as a faithful fan i cannot believe I am saying this i stick up for them I believe women can achieve it and can be rank there via (SURVIVOR SERIES 2010 AND TLC 2010) no put i get told how stupid it is i don’t care what people think but i know they are right and its a damn shame that people are held back for people that are ungrateful know nothing and come in and expect to triumph sure they had title reigns and improved but can they really say WOW I AM AN INCREDIBLE ATHLETE WITHOUT HELP? (SEE MARYSE VS GAIL 2010 DIVAS TITLE) we felt outrageous it does not help when they lable them as eye candy and its hard for us to call ourselves DIVA FANS when this is occuring greatfully we have WSU SHIMMER AND ETC but why can’t mainstream provide this they do it with men they book them right, regardless if their the alpha that is wrong if they are sexist come one its hard for us to claim we are fans when pathetic things occur I do not blame the girls i blame their decision some do not even want to be there and th eones that do they get watered down like KATARINA WATERS AKA KATIE LEA/WINTER AND JILLIAN, TARA/ VICTORIA? o you not think we want to see the best we come to your events to see the best it has to offer but when you deliver crap thats why we chant BORING , AND SAME OLD S&*T! Because we are free to our opinions its sad really then the models leave WWE and even then they are clueless they use them as a stepping stone i know i may sound mean and cruel but trust me whenever you are in a job and be in a situation where your boss hires and inexperience worker, sure they are willing to improve but put them in priority instead of you the veteran and then they succeed with your help and you get no credit and made look like a weak link yeah? WHATEVER THIS HA SBEEN GOING ON I AM OVER IT SURE ILL WATCH IT I HAVE LIKE 3% HOPE THE REST ITS GONE and i can’t wait for ROH WOMENS DIVISION AND TNA ITS GOOD NEEDS TO GET BETTER THOUGH but i can’t complain its better than THE DIVAS
I love both models & wrestlers. I have a diva avatar, but I frequently comment on indy posts. In fact, a good part of my votes for DD were for indy girls. Is it a shame that girls like Jessicka Havok & Sara Del Rey aren’t on tv? Fuck yes, but the blame is to be put with management. The girls are no longer even bathroom break material, but just simply a joke. While TNA does have better workers, I’m more often than not underwhelmed with their matches. They feel like diva matches stretched out. On another note people if you don’t like what you’re seeing on tv. STOP WATCHING. There are so many companies out there that could use your money a lot more than WWE or TNA & you’d get better wrestling/storylines & if anything you’d be overwhlemed. Like I was when I saw my first shimmer dvd, I was amazed. (Keep in mind the dvd wasn’t shimmer’s best at all; said dvd was volume 25 btw) I was shocked that the first match was given over 7 minutes, even more when the main event was given nearly 15 minutes! I was hooked from then on. I can list a shitload of companies that could use your support much more than mainstream. There’s shimmer, wsu, eve, ncw ff, chikara, pwwa, acw, etc. That’s not even counting japan or mexico. In conclusion, I accept both :) & crazy enough I’m a Sara Del Rey fan & a Kelly Kelly fan! I know, weird right? :)
The WWE is the biggest name in the wrestling business and their woman’s champion and contenders should at least have the appearance of being the best in the business. Hiring no talent models for you division hurts the credibility of women’s wrestling and that is part of the reason why they are relegated to 1 to 2 minute matches on Raw. If you have the best in the business and give them opportunities to show what they can do, the women’s division will gain more credibility and the WWE will give them more than 1-2 minute matches. Hiring no talent models makes the WWE divas division look like a joke.
Very well written article, Melanie, as per usual.
Couldn’t agree more with what you stated. A few months back, I commented on an article on our opinion on what company (divas or knockouts) we preferred. I couldn’t even imagine how many people picked apart the my comment and the WWE in general because of the fact they there roster has models. As you said, just because I love me some Sara Del Rey does not in anyway mean I cannot like Alicia Fox or Kaitlyn.
Oh and glad to see “A Londoner’s Eye” is returning.
I don’t have a problem if you were a former model I have a problem with the girls who come in with no passion. I don’t care if Kelly is a maxim cover girl my problem is that at PPVs she can do amazing moves but on raw she goes to lazy moves like the stinkface. It’s WWE’s fault the divas aren’t super popular. Another problem is girls getting the title when they’re not the best to their ability. I mean if you want to make Eve or Kelly look like real contenders they can’t win by roll ups.
Melanie as much as I love and respect everything Diva Dirt does and reading your opinion about this Models vs Wrestlers debate has me thinking.
I have a certain problem with models is because some models aren’t muich good wrestlers and need some more improvement.
And your right your not forced to watch WWE, there is a whole different variety of women’s wrestling out there and if you can’t afford to watch a WSU iPPV or go to a Shimmer show they have DVD that go on sale. {something I should REALLY do}
And lastly blame it on the WWE and their treatment for the women’s division that where you can’t blame neither the models or wrestlers. Plus its not taking very seriously with their title bely that looks like a butterfly. Also another problem with the Divas division is not only the lack of respect and time they get but the lack of diversity there is in the roster.
It’s not a Model vs Wrestler thing, not really. It’s how you use, or in the current case with WWE, MISUSE the talent.
You see, while wrestling is scripted, you still want it to look as real as possible. For those who think Kelly was a great Champion, let’s compare the exact same scene then & now. Go to Youtube, and look up…
“Survivor Series: Trish Stratus vs. Lita – WWE Women’s Championship”
Next, look up…
“WWE Raw: Kelly Kelly & Eve Torres vs Beth Phoenix & Natalya 10/3/11 [HD]”
THEN, tell me Kelly is just as good and convincing as Lita.
Kelly is pretty, yes. But, she can’t cut promos, run the ropes, etc. To be a convincing CHAMPION, you still have to be able to work a great match. To those declaring Kelly a worthy Champion because she’s pretty, do you think it would have been better if Trish had been jobbed out to Christy Hemme at Wrestlemania? Should Ashley have gone over Melina? Do you think Miss Kitty and Debra represented the TRUE Golden Era, rather than all those big muscular girls from the 2001-06 that held the Gold & Red?
During the Golden Era, there were plenty of pure Eye Candy Divas. They didn’t hold the Championship. Two of them, Stacy & Torrie, were two of the most popular Divas they ever had. They didn’t need the belt, and the belt didn’t need them. It’s all in how you USE your talent. Stacy & Torrie had plenty of other things to do.
It’s not even really Kelly’s size that’s the issue. Look at AJ Lee. She’s tiny, but if they would just give her the ball… For those of you who just know AJ from how WWE has used her, go to Youtube and look up the following (And, as I said earlier, her FCW theme was so much more badass than her Disney style theme)…
“FCW – Raquel Diaz, Caylee Turner & AJ Lee (March 6, 2011)”
“FCW – Naomi Knight vs AJ Lee (March 13, 2011)”
“FCW – AJ Lee,? Maxine, Vickie Guerrero & Raquel Diaz (March 27, 2011)”
“AJ Lee – FCW Diva of the Month”
She did her homework with her promos, a little Trish, a little Mickie…
As we see, the nucleus for a great Divas Division is there, either on the main roster or, in Naomi’s case, still waiting in FCW.
But, let’s look at what really counts, money. Think having the women who are solid workers being the focus of the Division with the pure Eye Candy doing other stuff isn’t better for business, that pushing only the pure Eye Candy is the best marketing strategy? That’s the excuse the “Make the pure Eye Candy Champions” supporters always use. But, when were the Divas selling tons of merchandise, videos, calendars, magazines, etc? Answer: During the Golden Era.
Now, a single magazine cover is cause for an in ring unveiling. Then, a month rarely went by without a Diva on a magazine cover. Trish alone had 15 of them in 2002. Stacy’s Maxim cover didn’t get a big in ring unveiling because that was just another month for the Golden Era Divas.
Even in 2011, Trish, retired for five years, beat the entire combined current Diva roster in magazine cover counts 7-2. So, it’s not just that the current approach isn’t selling as much stuff as the old approach did years ago, the current Divas aren’t as marketable as the Golden Era Divas, NOW. So much for the “That was then, this is now” excuse supporters of the current approach make.
That HAS to be embarrassing. Plus, it’s proof that something went very wrong along the way. It’s PROVEN, just with the pure numbers, that the current way of doing things is not only just bad in terms of quality product, but bad for BUSINESS.
As Stone Cold would say, “And that’s the bottom line.”
norisclouds Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 9:54 pm
There’s just no comparison between that 2004 rivalry and what we’re seeing today. Trish and Lita worked with Creative on all of those segments, sat down and figured out what to do and planned everything together. You can see how much chemistry they had and how fantastic they were–and they were rewarded for their hardwork with the main event of RAW. That was all them, the writers supported them, but it was all them talking and collaborating to make something.
We can’t say for sure how much the new women are working together on these storylines I honestly don’t know…but there is just something missing in that lockerroom that isn’t showing up on screen.
perceval Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 11:50 pm
What’s missing in the locker room…
A couple of other Youtube vids showing us a group of Golden Era Divas (Sable, Lita, Trish, Stacy, Torrie, Victoria) together when they’re unscripted…
“Divas falling down the steps”
“Trish Cam”
Now, wouldn’t this have been a fun group to do that reality show thing they’re going to do with the current Divas? They had really good chemistry, together.
norisclouds Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:19 am
I would’ve loved to see a reality show on the old divas. I don’t really care much about the new ones. Even the ones I enjoy I’m not really that interested in…
it’s all down to personality–as in, I’m not convinced any of them really have one and do I think any of them are friends? I dunno, I’m sure some of them are-but it’s hard to imagine it.
Women have been coming into wrestling as eye candy since the 1930s… That hasn’t changed and never will.
Fabulous Moolah came in as a valet through a lover of hers. Mildred Burke was champ for decades because she was the promoter’s wife. SHe dropped her title to his daughter after they split up.
Trish Stratus, Sable, Victoria, Torrie Wilson, Stacy Keibler, April Hunter & Sharmell were all models and that is how they got into wrestling.
Lita worked as a stripper prior to wrestling, as did Dark Journey and many other famous faces.
The fact of the matter is it is a very NEW era in wrestling in the sense that more women are coming into the sport through wrestling schools. It really is a new concept.
Most of the legendary girls were friends, relatives, girlfriends, lovers or spouses of other wrestlers and that is how they came in and made the sport famous.
Every single girl on the WWE roster earned her spot. Kaitlin is the newest one there and she’s been there for over a year now. They wrestle in and out every nght and I guarantee these so called useless models have more in ring experience than 3/4 of the girls woring the indies today.
Who cares how they got in the business, we should be discussing what they are doing. And that is entertaining us all, every night for many years, non-stop.
I couldn’t disagree more with what you said Melanie.
I’m not sure there is a model wrestler racism here on diva dirt. I think many of us only thinks models have less in ring skill than indys. To me a top model wrestler is equivalent to the shimmer mid-card at best. Models have only a few advantage over an indy wrestler, there are hotters, they bring diversity, and they look less like fighter so some people who looks more to the entertaining side of wrestling connects easier with them (Cena syndrome).
That being said, I’m not against models in wrestling but they should just be a few and be “la cerise sur le gateau” to the division and not the cake itself because since their in ring abilities aren’t that good, they’re not pushable.
I’ve been looking at the average time each diva had per match. From all the divas, Kelly had many match but they were the shortest. I blame the bookers for these tiny matches, but I blame Kelly too because she wasn’t pushable and she led by default the division to this state.
I know it’s hard to refuse a contract from a big company, but at some point you have to realize where you are heading, think that maybe you’re not good enough and that you’re hurting the thing you love more than you’re helping it.
Finally I highly dislike when people use the “love it or leave it argument” which is and will ever be invalid, sometimes you have to fight and protest to make things go the right way, history is full of examples.
Plus you can watch raw and smacdown every week for free while you actually have to pay to watch wsu/shimmer once in a year.
But that’s not the point, the thing is men in wwe have time to wrestle, while women don’t have and are a complete joke, this is the biggest issue with wwe.
Jhonmarco Reply:
December 21st, 2011 at 11:35 pm
tbh, I think the best model divas could only hope to make it on sparkle (at most). Sparkle is shimmer’s pre-show for those of you unaware. :)
perceval Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:38 am
Yeah, don’t care for the “Love it or leave it” mentality, either. Trish & Victoria developed into solid wrestlers with great mic skills. Kelly has not. Period.
Trish & Victoria, with two years experience, put on a classic feud in 2002-03 that took Women’s wrestling from a novelty like Midget wrestling to the upper card & a draw unto itself, climaxing with that classic match at Wrestlemania 19. With FIVE years experience, Kelly still can’t even run the ropes, let alone cut a promo.
The writers? Ashley had mic skills, a unique (self created) look & (also self created) character that connected with the fans AS SOON AS SHE WALKED IN THE DOOR. That was all Ashley. Too bad she didn’t develop the in ring skills to go with all that.
Where Kelly is best used is for things like Maxim. That, she’s perfect for. That’s where she shines. There’s a place for the pure Eye Candy in the company. It’s just not holding the Championship.
Of course, Trish & Victoria had a huge advantage going in that Kelly lacked: They were FITNESS models. A huge mistake people make here and other places where the subject of Models turned Wrestlers comes up is assuming fitness and lingerie models are one and the same. They’re not.
To use as an example, everyone who doesn’t know her background assumes Beth Phoenix came from fitness modeling, because she’s built (and poses) like a fitness model. She’s far closer to Trish & Victoria than Kelly is. Look at which rookie looks like a Beth-in-training: fitness model Kaitlyn.
Swimsuit & lingerie modeling is all about selling the swimsuits & lingerie. The models are especially thin to not distract from what they’re selling. Fitness modeling is all about selling muscle & fitness. Therefore, a fitness model is going to have a lot of muscle and conditioning, which, yes, makes a huge difference in what one can do in the ring right off the bat, the kind of hits she can take and deliver.
So, the fitness models are in their own category where these discussions are concerned.
Jhonmarco Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:19 am
Sorry I must of have missed it, but when did Kelly get as much effort put into her charecter as Trish or Lita did? Hence, why they were so great. Management does trust Kelly on the mic, why I’m not sure. They hardly let her talk on the mic, the few times she has, she’s been decent.
norisclouds Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:21 am
Yea Trish and Lita have both said they had writers they were close to that worked with them and knew their voices…particularly during that feud in ’04–Candice had writers on her side and backing her during her push–I don’t think any of the women today really have that.
norisclouds Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:25 am
gah–I can’t edit comments but in further agreement with what you said–both Trish and Lita have spoken about getting pitched storylines that they rejected…especially Lita. From the way Lita talked about her experience in WWE someone from creative was constantly asking her to do a storyline and she would frequently turn them down if she didn’t like them and then disappear from television.
How many women today do you think are getting pitched a storyline everyday they come into work? They just treated their women who they considered draws differently then. I don’t think Kelly and Beth get writers coming up to them asking them if “Hey do you want to do this storyline?” everyday or “Hey I wrote this for you are you interested?”
perceval Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 4:07 am
Trish & Lita worked to develop their own distinct looks and characters. Mickie James crafted her look, persona, and first major storyline. Ashley built her own look and character and won the fans over with her very first appearance.
Trish & Lita both stress that it’s up to the Diva to make herself stand out. Trish recently complimented Alicia Fox for doing just that, taking what little opportunity she’s been given and running with it, developing a distinct look and persona, taking a two minute match and doing something that gets people to notice her.
Can you honestly say Alicia has had more opportunity than Kelly, this year? Kelly has been pushed down our throats all year. Alicia pretty much disappeared for months, then was given a sidekick role to Kelly like Eve’s. But, it seems clear she’s not content to be just one of Kelly’s perky little sidekicks.
Whatever the results wind up being, Alicia is putting in the effort.
norisclouds Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 8:16 am
@PERCEVAL Honestly, I don’t disagree with you but I think it’s a combination of both: times in the WWE have changed for the women in the lockerroom–I’m not confident that the same strategies that worked for Lita and Trish will work now for todays’ divas. They have a different head of talent to deal with and new writers. At the same time, we have no idea what the level of dedication and interest is among the majority of the women.
I know that Trish and Lita said a lot of it was them taking advantage of what little time they had, but they had a bit more flexibility than today’s women–for one thing, they were near-instant stars as soon as they debuted. For another thing, they had powerful backstage backers who were wrestlers…and to top it off, they were already proven draws (or at least Lita was) within the first year of their careers.
They had a distinct advantage that women today don’t enjoy.
perceval Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 10:45 am
@NORISCLOUDS But again, we have Alicia, and what she’s been doing for the last month.
You can’t say Management hasn’t been backing Kelly. She’s been getting the megapush, all year. But, over the last month or so, we’ve seen Alicia get a secondary sidekick spot with Eve for Kelly. We’ve seen the outfits Alicia has put together. We’ve seen her doing commentary for a match, then allowed to do an in ring promo. She’s impressed someone during this time.
And here’s where the real competition comes in. Alicia is trying to take Kelly’s spot. And, she just might succeed. Never mind Beth, Kelly’s REAL challenger right now is Alicia Fox.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Alicia spent the entire Summer and Fall working on developing her look and character for when the opportunity arose.
MNM4ever Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 8:09 am
I agree with French One on pretty much everything! We just want divas who can put up a match that us diva fans will be proud of! in saying that melanie also made some very valid and correct statements
I can’t pick a side just because of these few women : Trish Stratus, Victoria/Tara, Michelle McCool & Layla. Enough said.
I legitimately took the time and completely read these comments , and I have to say I kinda get both sides. Women’s wrestling is definitely a market that they don’t take complete advantage of. Hell, TNA could so say so, for a long time the Knockouts! Division was the thing saving the company from destruction. Most people attack the girls, when in reality, it is the WWE themselves who do not give the girls two damn minutes in the ring, just look at RAW last night, Alicia and the DIVAS CHAMPION had a match that lasted a minute and half.
Are you kidding me?! We here as not only WWE fans, but women’s wrestling fans, are told that the WWE Divas are the top of the barrel when it comes to wrestling, there strong, sexy and powerful and yet they can’t spare an extra 5 minutes for a hand full of girls. Like you had stated in your comment, the division shows great potential and for the most part 80% of the divas roster can pull out a very impressive match if given the time, including the girls who have taken a few snapshots prior to joining the WWE.
So, really, like you said it really isn’t so much whom they hire, but WHY they hire a certain girl. Sure, for every “Courtney Taylor” we have girls like Audrey Marie, Naomi, Maxine and Aksana whom may not have the so called experience, but each bring something different, but there is also no reason to not have a girl like Sara Del Rey who can work and is good looking in the lockeroom.
First off it is obviously WWE’s fault. There are girls on the roster who can pull off good matches. Yes the indy wrestlers have worked for years to get to the WWE like Beth and Natalya but there are some great wrestlers on the roster that come from modeling or dancing. Eve, Alicia, Layla, Kaitlyn, Naomi, Aksana. They all do not come from the indys. That being said indy wrestlers automatically have my respect but that doesn’t mean that the other girls don’t deserve my respect too. Another example of a model-turned-wrestler is Brooka Tessmacher. Brooke has come so far in such a short time! The sky is the limit for her. I get why people get mad because they want their favorite indy wrestler to get signed to a major company but those people have no right to tell me or anyone else who i can be a fan of. That makes me more angry than anything and it comes from both sides of the argument. My point is that wrestlers make you fans of them so people become fans because they make a connection with that wrestler so anyone who says that someone can’t be a fan of someone has no right to say so!
I just dont get the argument… Again, who cares how one gets into wrestling… The fact is they do, and those who want it stay. Case in point, Maria, Candice, Michelle, Christy, Joy & Amy. Those were the Diva Search girls that came in. Amy & Joy were out of the business within a year. Maria, Candice & Michelle enjoyed long runs with WWE. Christy moved onto the Indys before ending up in TNA.
Hell a lot of those girls have had longer careers than Trish & Lita!
My point is, coming in from a magazine shoot or from an indy background makes no difference. For ever Mercedes Martinez on the Indys you find a Dana Dameson. Indys is not the end all be all of wrestling, and nor is WWE. But really, who gives a rats behind. Every girl that has stepped in the ring deserves respect for doing so. Regardless of her background.
In the end, everyone in wrestling started out with no wrestling background, be it Christy Hemme, Mercedes Martinez or Beth Phoenix. Nobody is born wrestling, you all have to start somewhere. Some got lucky but that doesn’t automatically mean they suck.
perceval Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 4:23 am
It’s not the background, but the results. Compare Trish vs Victoria to Kelly vs Brie. Then, you’ll see why nobody identifies Trish & Victoria with the pure Eye Candy.
If Kelly vs Brie had delivered something besides “bathroom break,” nobody would be complaining.
Nobody has a problem with the Champion being pretty. It’s a problem when being pretty is the ONLY thing the Champion brings to the table.
The problem with the ‘you aren’t being forced to watch’ argument is that for most people, WWE is the only wrestling on TV, I don’t even get TNA here. aaand let’s be real, the average WWE fan is not gonna know about any ‘alternatives’ so their idea of womens wrestling is based solely on what they see on the box. WWE is the biggest ‘wrestling’ company in the world so when people tune in they should be watchin the cream of the crop right? wrong, well not all of them. I don’t think there should be absolutely zero models in the biz, I’m all for ‘it’s not how you start, it’s how you end it”, but when you have women like SDR (from the pic up top for eg) who have trained/wrestled for years and are totally amazing, not even getting a single chance whereas some random pretty girl who has zero interest in wrestling gets a job just like that, it doesn’t sit right with some ppl. *not saying its the models fault, WWE should be blamed* It’s bad enough she was denied by TNA as well for not having a certain, ‘diva’ look – hows that for an “alternative” to WWE?
The main issue with hiring models with no prior wrestling background, is not only does it take years to train them up to be anything decent in the ring, but the passion and heart for the business — they either have it or not. There are so many girls just within the past 6 years, who were plucked from magazines, got let go and then just went back to whatever they were doing before like nothing ever happened. Most recently Eden Stiles/Brandi Reed, she was only hired earlier this year and she ends up asking for her release. She was like the fourth female ring announcer theyve lost after Lilian Garcia first left the company. Idk what goes on in their heads when they pick the girls or what the selection process even involves, but with so many bad examples maybe they need to re-write their formula? Yea yea I know INSERT ‘Maryse, Trish etc turned out good’, Im aware of that, but I also remember the Lena Yadas, Joy Giovannis, Rebecca DiPiertos etc trust me, people aren’t wary of model signees for no reason. In this article you mentioned that ‘if i was a model and was offered a big tv job i would accept in a heartbeat’ or something like tht, that’s very true most people would. Though what ends up happening is that most of the girls don’t take the ball and run with it & you can see through the work that they don’t have the passion for it. Thousands and thousands of women all over the world, grind it out on the independent scene in hopes of landing a job in WWE or TNA. They wrestle for like 10 people and probably dont even get paid half the number of fans in attendance, still they would kill to be in the ‘models’ position.
I think if they re-arranged the divas division and utilized all of the women (models AND wrestlers) to the best of their ability, then they would have a better product. But right now, there is so many inconsistencies and lack of diversity as far as talent goes, that I don’t blame ppl for gettin frustrated.
perceval Reply:
December 22nd, 2011 at 7:37 pm
“Yea yea I know INSERT ‘Maryse, Trish etc turned out good’, Im aware of that, but I also remember the Lena Yadas, Joy Giovannis, Rebecca DiPiertos etc trust me, people aren’t wary of model signees for no reason.”
Maryse was entertaining, but never good in the ring. She’s more an example of the problem. She’d have been managing during the Golden Era, not holding the Championship.
And, again, there’s a big difference between fitness models and MODEL models. Fitness modeling gave us Chyna, Trish Stratus, Victoria, Torrie Wilson, Candice Michelle, and now Kaitlyn. You can’t really declare them and the Maryse, Kelly, and Bella Twins MODEL model types as one and the same.
To show why fitness models are their own category in the whole Model vs Wrestler thing… You know how physically huge Beth looks next to any of the Divas there except for Natalya? Go to Youtube and look up…
“Beth Phoenix & Torrie Wilson vs Candice Michelle & Victoria”
It’s Beth’s debut match on Raw, with Trish in the blondes’ corner and Mickie in the brunettes’. The first thing you notice with Beth, Mickie, and no less than FOUR former fitness models (keeping in mind how Beth looks with the current Diva crop) is Beth doesn’t look especially large and imposing, the only woman who looks tiny there being Mickie.
That girl that Beth is chatting with in that first shot? THAT’S what Kelly Kelly would look like if she’d been a fitness model rather than a lingerie model.
cutymania Reply:
December 23rd, 2011 at 1:18 pm
true. but at the same time, Torrie was hardly decent in the ring neither was Candice or Chyna tho you could see how passionate they were when they wrestled/performed or in interviews. I’m aware of the difference tho I don’t think it’s really fair to call the Bellas and Kelly ‘MODEL models’ when they at least have an athletic background with the twins playing soccer competitively and Kelly with her gymnastics. Not sure about Maryse.
On Spot as always Melanie! :)
Fully agree on the most part.
- Yes we know that some girls are not as talented in the ring as others
- Yes some have started as wrestlers after they made a degree or were dancers or models so what?
That doesn’t mean they are not wrestlers, it only means they are having a other background (like we all have our own individual backgrounds aswell).
I never picked a side and I’ll never will.
When I see a botch it doesn’t matter who did it (so called wrestler or model), I’ll call it a botch and talk about it and the person that did it while from what I saw here through the year, some people calling out a ex-model on their botch immediately, getting harsh, calling names and such, while are either totally forgiving when a women with a indies wrestling background botches OR blaming it on the opponent even it was clearly NOT the opponents fault.
This is uncalled for and unfair in my opinion and shouldn’t happen in the first place.
Should we talk about botches or talent involved? For sure!
Should we degrade these women and be as respectless towards them as WWE already is? Not really.
If we want this division to ever shine, then we need to rather support them as much as we can as we should support the womens wrestling in general.
Honestly, I have grown up with WWE and there is a reason for it:
- The availability
We can say what we want how great shimmer, wsu and other promotions are but how can one outside the us tell when they get never to see them?
Ever thought about that?
I’m located in Germany and even in our internet times in which global availability could and should be high, Shimmer, WSU and other promotions are rather unavailable to me.
At least I can watch WWE and TNA on youtube or here in DD or in Dailymotion or even partially on TV.
That makes a huge difference you know?
WWE knows that so no matter how great TNA is with their knockouts or other promotions with their Women, Vince knows that people outside the USA will barely aknowledge or care cause they won’t get to watch them in the most cases anyway.
I was more than happy when I found out that I can watch the PPV of WSUs breaking barriers 2 (thanks DD :) ) and I payed and streamed it.
Even there were technical difficulties on their part and it took place in the middle of the night for me, I stayed awake and enjoyed it!
Now, WHY don’t they make viewings like that available in regular basis?
It would make these promotions more known, raise their funds and boost their popularity.
No promotional work = no growing!
If such promotions get to get more known and popular, WWE would notice and try to either cooperate, or boost their own Divas division to match the “standards” the other promotions are setting for their female talents.
A win/win situation for us as fans cause we would get to enjoy Shimmer, WSU and other promotions globally while the Divas would get the appropriate boost, character development and more time in overall.
So why not spend some time to support and focus on these things so we can help as fans, instead of degrading and bury the talents we want to actually enjoy instead?
Of course the largest portion of this depends on the management of such promotions but even we as a minority can make a small change if we put enough effort in it.
Calling these talents(yes they are all talents cause they are putting their physical condition and health in line for our enjoyement while working their butts off) “names” asking for their releases won’t make things better for anyone.
Supporting their talent so they can get utilized approprietly can.
AMEN Melanie I totally agree with everything you said